Acura TLX Type S: 355 HP / 354 TQ est.
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TSX69 (07-31-2020)
07-30-2020, 11:36 AM
#2
Saw that today. I guess a lot of people will be disappointed. Well we can at least expect the price to follow the HP/TQ numbers ... I.e. low and respectable somewhat lol.
it’s still decently powered for what it is. Will probably be well balanced and probably has a decent amount of power to be released with some bolt one or reflash etc ...
def not a competitor power wise out the box for whoever they said they were aiming for unless it’s underrated and the other figures like acceleration come out and it performs better than what these numbers show.
price will now be the issue!
it’s still decently powered for what it is. Will probably be well balanced and probably has a decent amount of power to be released with some bolt one or reflash etc ...
def not a competitor power wise out the box for whoever they said they were aiming for unless it’s underrated and the other figures like acceleration come out and it performs better than what these numbers show.
price will now be the issue!
07-30-2020, 11:42 AM
#3
Saw that today. I guess a lot of people will be disappointed. Well we can at least expect the price to follow the HP/TQ numbers ... I.e. low and respectable somewhat lol.
it’s still decently powered for what it is. Will probably be well balanced and probably has a decent amount of power to be released with some bolt one or reflash etc ...
def not a competitor power wise out the box for whoever they said they were aiming for unless it’s underrated and the other figures like acceleration come out and it performs better than what these numbers show.
price will now be the issue!
it’s still decently powered for what it is. Will probably be well balanced and probably has a decent amount of power to be released with some bolt one or reflash etc ...
def not a competitor power wise out the box for whoever they said they were aiming for unless it’s underrated and the other figures like acceleration come out and it performs better than what these numbers show.
price will now be the issue!
07-30-2020, 12:29 PM
#4
Saw that today. I guess a lot of people will be disappointed. Well we can at least expect the price to follow the HP/TQ numbers ... I.e. low and respectable somewhat lol.
it’s still decently powered for what it is. Will probably be well balanced and probably has a decent amount of power to be released with some bolt one or reflash etc ...
def not a competitor power wise out the box for whoever they said they were aiming for unless it’s underrated and the other figures like acceleration come out and it performs better than what these numbers show.
price will now be the issue!
it’s still decently powered for what it is. Will probably be well balanced and probably has a decent amount of power to be released with some bolt one or reflash etc ...
def not a competitor power wise out the box for whoever they said they were aiming for unless it’s underrated and the other figures like acceleration come out and it performs better than what these numbers show.
price will now be the issue!
07-30-2020, 01:13 PM
#5
Burning Brakes
Since when does Honda Underrate anything? They aren't the Germans.
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07-30-2020, 01:31 PM
#6
Three Wheelin'
That puts it right in the mix with the S4, M340i, and the C43 AMG. But many people were probably hoping Acura would eke out more HP/torque than those cars for a slightly lower price to make it a more tempting offering.
Oh well, when has Acura ever given customers what they want...
Oh well, when has Acura ever given customers what they want...
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07-30-2020, 01:33 PM
#7
6G TLX-S
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07-30-2020, 03:05 PM
#8
Burning Brakes
That puts it right in the mix with the S4, M340i, and the C43 AMG. But many people were probably hoping Acura would eke out more HP/torque than those cars for a slightly lower price to make it a more tempting offering.
Oh well, when has Acura ever given customers what they want...
Oh well, when has Acura ever given customers what they want...
07-30-2020, 03:12 PM
#9
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07-30-2020, 03:22 PM
#10
Instructor
Great example of why HP and Torque numbers don't mean much. It all comes down to weight, aerodynamics, power distribution to the wheels (torque/powerband) and the tuning for the transmission.
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07-30-2020, 03:23 PM
#11
AZ Community Team
Turbo motors and modern ECU's allow easy upgrade accommodations as long as drivetrain components and thermal management (cooling systems) can cope withe increased thermal and torque
07-30-2020, 03:33 PM
#12
Uh, it still means a lot. The reason the S4 performs so well is because Audi severely underrates it from the factory. It's really pushing out closer to 349whp, which would be closer to 400 hp at the crank. Do we think the Type-S is really making 400hp and Acura is sandbagging things? I'm not one to hold my breath on that.
07-30-2020, 04:17 PM
#13
Burning Brakes
07-30-2020, 04:24 PM
#14
Care to explain what you mean? With a rolling start (that eliminates the advances of an AWD launch) the C43 is only 0.2s faster to 60. In the quarter mile, the C43 traps 1mph higher, which is remarkable since the S4’s AWD system is deadweight for this metric. How is that “much faster”? Have you even driven these cars?
07-30-2020, 04:29 PM
#15
Burning Brakes
Care to explain what you mean? With a rolling start (that eliminates the advances of an AWD launch) the C43 is only 0.2s faster to 60. In the quarter mile, the C43 traps 1mph higher, which is remarkable since the S4’s AWD system is deadweight for this metric. How is that “much faster”? Have you even driven these cars?
07-30-2020, 04:33 PM
#16
That puts it right in the mix with the S4, M340i, and the C43 AMG. But many people were probably hoping Acura would eke out more HP/torque than those cars for a slightly lower price to make it a more tempting offering.
Oh well, when has Acura ever given customers what they want...
Oh well, when has Acura ever given customers what they want...
not in the m340i ballpark. That car is damn near an old M3 and punching above anything else in the segment without trying too hard lol.
price and packaging is what will have to sell this car.
07-30-2020, 04:43 PM
#17
Interesting, I test drove them too but felt they were similar. I guess everyone's butt senses speed differently. Oh well, numbers don't lie. Care to explain that away?
07-30-2020, 05:02 PM
#18
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Back to the old drum, the advertising number is meaningless to the enthusiast driver who knows better. The factory power ratings mean nothing unless they over rate it & the performance comes up short. Automobile Magazine just tested the 2021 Supra rated at 377BHP by Toyota. Its the same B58 thats in the M340 & Z4 M40 rated at 382BHP by BMW. BMW also provides the 4 cylinder versions engine.
Automobiles chassis dyno came up with 388 at the wheels which suggests up to 450BHP at the crank. These cars are all sub 4 seconds to 60MPH & 12.2 @ 116MPH in the 1/4 mile so believe they are over 377 & 382BHP.
These cars don't really punch above their weight they are just advertised below their actual performance weight creating low expectations. The sub 400BHP Audis & MB will run neck & neck with them so the common ground is they are all sandbagging the power numbers.
Think Acura is wise not to play a big number out of the box. Good performance against lowered expectations will be good for the cars image. Infiniti went head to head & out numbered them with the 400BHP & got killed for it - 400 midget ponies.
Automobiles chassis dyno came up with 388 at the wheels which suggests up to 450BHP at the crank. These cars are all sub 4 seconds to 60MPH & 12.2 @ 116MPH in the 1/4 mile so believe they are over 377 & 382BHP.
These cars don't really punch above their weight they are just advertised below their actual performance weight creating low expectations. The sub 400BHP Audis & MB will run neck & neck with them so the common ground is they are all sandbagging the power numbers.
Think Acura is wise not to play a big number out of the box. Good performance against lowered expectations will be good for the cars image. Infiniti went head to head & out numbered them with the 400BHP & got killed for it - 400 midget ponies.
07-30-2020, 05:08 PM
#19
AZ Community Team
+1, all other factors being equal AWD systems also are not as efficient at powertrain drive loss's compared to a RWD, there's another two differentials and one more bevel gearset for loss.
And typically AWD cars are heavier than their RWD equavalent with the extra AWD diff's and such.
Drivetrain Power Loss - The 15% "Rule"- Modified Magazine
07-30-2020, 05:19 PM
#20
+1, all other factors being equal AWD systems also are not as efficient at powertrain drive loss's compared to a RWD, there's another two differentials and one more bevel gearset for loss.
And typically AWD cars are heavier than their RWD equavalent with the extra AWD diff's and such.
Drivetrain Power Loss - The 15% "Rule"- Modified Magazine
And typically AWD cars are heavier than their RWD equavalent with the extra AWD diff's and such.
Drivetrain Power Loss - The 15% "Rule"- Modified Magazine
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07-30-2020, 05:32 PM
#21
Back to the old drum, the advertising number is meaningless to the enthusiast driver who knows better. The factory power ratings mean nothing unless they over rate it & the performance comes up short. Automobile Magazine just tested the 2021 Supra rated at 377BHP by Toyota. Its the same B58 thats in the M340 & Z4 M40 rated at 382BHP by BMW. BMW also provides the 4 cylinder versions engine.
Automobiles chassis dyno came up with 388 at the wheels which suggests up to 450BHP at the crank. These cars are all sub 4 seconds to 60MPH & 12.2 @ 116MPH in the 1/4 mile so believe they are over 377 & 382BHP.
These cars don't really punch above their weight they are just advertised below their actual performance weight creating low expectations. The sub 400BHP Audis & MB will run neck & neck with them so the common ground is they are all sandbagging the power numbers.
Think Acura is wise not to play a big number out of the box. Good performance against lowered expectations will be good for the cars image. Infiniti went head to head & out numbered them with the 400BHP & got killed for it - 400 midget ponies.
Automobiles chassis dyno came up with 388 at the wheels which suggests up to 450BHP at the crank. These cars are all sub 4 seconds to 60MPH & 12.2 @ 116MPH in the 1/4 mile so believe they are over 377 & 382BHP.
These cars don't really punch above their weight they are just advertised below their actual performance weight creating low expectations. The sub 400BHP Audis & MB will run neck & neck with them so the common ground is they are all sandbagging the power numbers.
Think Acura is wise not to play a big number out of the box. Good performance against lowered expectations will be good for the cars image. Infiniti went head to head & out numbered them with the 400BHP & got killed for it - 400 midget ponies.
All that is to say, Infiniti failed in spite of having an engine that was very very competitive when you get down to the nuts and bolts. Just imagine if they didn't make big power; the car would be laughed at even more.
07-30-2020, 05:36 PM
#22
Burning Brakes
07-30-2020, 05:39 PM
#23
I'm not sure how you could think they feel "similar" when one is .3 seconds faster. That's a huge difference in performance even if it doesn't look like it on paper. In reality 4.1 seconds to 60 vs. 4.4 is a big difference. Especially since the C43 can have trouble putting all the power down.
And if you consider 0.1s in the quarter to be "much slower", what does that make the both of the compared to the M340i? Apocalyptically slow?
07-30-2020, 05:49 PM
#24
Burning Brakes
And yet in the quarter mile the S4 claws its way back to be just 0.1 slower, even with the disadvantage of being saddled with AWD. In that case it seems to me that in the real world, the S4 is actually faster than the C43 because who here among us regularly does hard launches from a stop?
And if you consider 0.1s in the quarter to be "much slower", what does that make the both of the compared to the M340i? Apocalyptically slow?
And if you consider 0.1s in the quarter to be "much slower", what does that make the both of the compared to the M340i? Apocalyptically slow?
07-30-2020, 05:53 PM
#25
Where are you getting your numbers? The S4 is a High 12 second car vs. the C43 which is a low 12 second car. That's not close. The C43 is identical to the M340i, which is why I'm questioning how you can think the M340 is the benchmark performance wise. They run the same times.
C43: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...n-test-review/
Refreshed C43: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...-drive-review/
S4: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...4-test-review/
M340i: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-the-numbers/
They pegged the M340i at 12.3 @ 114, the refreshed C43 and 12.6 @ 111, and the older C43 at 12.7 @ 110. That's not close at all.
Last edited by fiatlux; 07-30-2020 at 05:56 PM.
07-30-2020, 06:14 PM
#26
Three Wheelin'
A lot of people are disappointed by those numbers, I'm not. Acura has always "fallen short" in the specs game with their competitors, but are as good, if not better in some cases. Take a look at the NSX and the TL Type S.
Numbers only tell part of the story as to how the car will perform, but people have associated big HP numbers with how fast a car really is. I can't wait to see the official tests/reviews/comparisons of the Type S.
Numbers only tell part of the story as to how the car will perform, but people have associated big HP numbers with how fast a car really is. I can't wait to see the official tests/reviews/comparisons of the Type S.
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07-30-2020, 06:41 PM
#27
Senior Moderator
A lot of people are disappointed by those numbers, I'm not. Acura has always "fallen short" in the specs game with their competitors, but are as good, if not better in some cases. Take a look at the NSX and the TL Type S.
Numbers only tell part of the story as to how the car will perform, but people have associated big HP numbers with how fast a car really is. I can't wait to see the official tests/reviews/comparisons of the Type S.
Numbers only tell part of the story as to how the car will perform, but people have associated big HP numbers with how fast a car really is. I can't wait to see the official tests/reviews/comparisons of the Type S.
The Type-S in 2007 was a let down with only about 30 extra HP so it is no surprise that there isn't as much power, but the difference in Type-S and Base TL is certainly noticeable.
Plus how much faster 0-60 do you think Acura would want to offer? Sub 5-seconds seems like a pipe dream for a mass selling sedan or SUV (NSX not included) with honda/acura. If the Type-S is under 5 seconds to 0-60 then that will be impressive. I'm guessing it'll be around the 5.2 second range.... 4G TL was in the 5.8 range and TLX was about the same.
Last edited by csmeance; 07-30-2020 at 06:44 PM.
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07-30-2020, 06:54 PM
#28
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Most if not all the German AWD cars a quicker in a sprint from a standing start then the RWD versions. Off the line traction outpoints the weight & drive train loss penalty. Things keep evolving from when RWD/MT was the king of the sprint. Traction ECU managed AWD/ATorDCT is now the King.
07-30-2020, 07:15 PM
#29
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Just back to this on the variables. They are variable & not all things are equal. The 15% number was a WAG that splits the possible end points, 10% & 20%, in half. Makes things easier to figure since I would expect is almost impossible to get an accurate loss factor without inside info on each car. Not too many magazines are going to pull the engine to do a true engine dyno crankshaft horsepower test.
Transmission gear ratios, rear & front axle ratios, tire traction friction factors, weight transfer, actual test weight vs manufactures listed weight & the list goes on not including the weather at the test. The magazines all have an algorithm that washes the variables out of the tests but they are still not the true tested numbers just what the magazine thinks they are. And of course they make 10 or 15 runs then pick the best number. Thats why I like to stick to one magazine when comparing results. All will be washed through the same algorithm so you have comparability.
All this stuff is why the inexperienced enthusiast can be very disappointed when his hot new street rocket sort of fizzles when he takes it to the drag strip & can't make what C&D said the car will do.
Think their goal will be high 4's. They can say its a 4 second car like the Germans are. Very few non-enthusiasts will understand there is a big difference between 4.0 & 4.9, its all just 4 seconds. Acura is already dressing the S in race duds in their teaser commercials so you can see where they are going.
Tag line "Type S - First TLX to run 4 seconds 0-60"
Transmission gear ratios, rear & front axle ratios, tire traction friction factors, weight transfer, actual test weight vs manufactures listed weight & the list goes on not including the weather at the test. The magazines all have an algorithm that washes the variables out of the tests but they are still not the true tested numbers just what the magazine thinks they are. And of course they make 10 or 15 runs then pick the best number. Thats why I like to stick to one magazine when comparing results. All will be washed through the same algorithm so you have comparability.
All this stuff is why the inexperienced enthusiast can be very disappointed when his hot new street rocket sort of fizzles when he takes it to the drag strip & can't make what C&D said the car will do.
Think their goal will be high 4's. They can say its a 4 second car like the Germans are. Very few non-enthusiasts will understand there is a big difference between 4.0 & 4.9, its all just 4 seconds. Acura is already dressing the S in race duds in their teaser commercials so you can see where they are going.
Tag line "Type S - First TLX to run 4 seconds 0-60"
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07-30-2020, 08:26 PM
#30
We have an Accord that does 0-60 in 5.2s and an RLX that does it in 4.9s, my 2010 6spd manual TL can do it in 5.1s. You need get it under 4.5s to make it seem like the performance sedan that they claim it can be.
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07-30-2020, 09:27 PM
#31
User Awaiting Email Confirmation
Lest we forget, this is Honda we're talking about. The SH-AWD system may be effective in inclement weather, but it doesn't seem stout to cope with a lot of power. Same with the 10AT. I wouldn't be surprised to see people who tune their Type S's blowing their diffs, trans and/or transfer cases.
07-30-2020, 09:40 PM
#32
Senior Moderator
Car and Driver is calling $45k on the Type S. If that's the price for that level of power, that's a good deal. I admit to a bit less excitement now, but will await peple reporting on the driving dynamics as that's always part of the Hondacura story.
I think the 3.0T will be underrated, just like the K20 in the Accord.
I think the 3.0T will be underrated, just like the K20 in the Accord.
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07-30-2020, 09:46 PM
#33
Senior Moderator
Lest we forget, this is Honda we're talking about. The SH-AWD system may be effective in inclement weather, but it doesn't seem stout to cope with a lot of power. Same with the 10AT. I wouldn't be surprised to see people who tune their Type S's blowing their diffs, trans and/or transfer cases.
07-30-2020, 10:17 PM
#34
Null and proud of it
290 hp to 355 hp is a big jump. When compared the 2G TLX Type S to all previous TLX and TL models this is a generous power bump.
Compared to, say, an Audi S4, is the new Type S in the same category, likely not.
Question is, is Acura even trying to compete with the Germans?
Compared to, say, an Audi S4, is the new Type S in the same category, likely not.
Question is, is Acura even trying to compete with the Germans?
07-30-2020, 10:34 PM
#35
Senior Moderator
290 hp to 355 hp is a big jump. When compared the 2G TLX Type S to all previous TLX and TL models this is a generous power bump.
Compared to, say, an Audi S4, is the new Type S in the same category, likely not.
Question is, is Acura even trying to compete with the Germans?
Compared to, say, an Audi S4, is the new Type S in the same category, likely not.
Question is, is Acura even trying to compete with the Germans?
272HP on Acura products from 2.0L turbo & 355HP from a 3.0L Turbo. A Mercedes CLA45 AMG has a 2.0L 4cyl putting out 382 HP & 4.0 sec 0-60 and the CLA 35 2.0 4cyl is 302HP & does 0-60 in 4.6 seconds thanks to DCT.
That's the same exact category acura is targeting with the TLX-S.
07-30-2020, 10:55 PM
#36
Null and proud of it
HP relative to other acura's, yes. Relative to other honda/acura products, Nope. Civic Type-R is getting 306HP from 2.0L engine on the performance variant. If they can do that with the 2.0, TLX's 3.0T (IE Performance variant) should certainly be at the 400+HP mark. If they can't, they should figure out how to get their 2.0L to give out more power and their 3.0L like their competitors. Granted they don't want to step on the toes of the NSX, but it's nowhere near the 570+ HP the NSX has from it's 3.5LTT engine.
272HP on Acura products from 2.0L turbo & 355HP from a 3.0L Turbo. A Mercedes CLA45 AMG has a 2.0L 4cyl putting out 382 HP & 4.0 sec 0-60 and the CLA 35 2.0 4cyl is 302HP & does 0-60 in 4.6 seconds thanks to DCT.
That's the same exact category acura is targeting with the TLX-S.
272HP on Acura products from 2.0L turbo & 355HP from a 3.0L Turbo. A Mercedes CLA45 AMG has a 2.0L 4cyl putting out 382 HP & 4.0 sec 0-60 and the CLA 35 2.0 4cyl is 302HP & does 0-60 in 4.6 seconds thanks to DCT.
That's the same exact category acura is targeting with the TLX-S.
Maybe they're saving that for the TLX TypeR?
07-30-2020, 11:05 PM
#37
Senior Moderator
Acura has stated the Type-R brand is honda only unfortunately....
https://www.motor1.com/news/399596/h...ame-expansion/
This news comes from Hideki Kakinoma, the project leader for the 2020 Civic Type R. During an interview at an event in Milan, Italy, the engineer shared that Honda has no immediate plans for Type R models outside of the Civic.
“The ‘R’ in Civic Type R has always stood for racing, so expanding into something like an SUV or crossover doesn’t make sense,” Kakinoma-san said. “The Civic is currently the only vehicle in the Honda lineup to meet our requirements of what a Type R needs to be.”
It’s fair, then, to ask about Acura and the TLX and NSX, both of which have racing history (the NSX still races today). Even so, Kakinoma says Honda is unlikely to share the Type R nameplate with Acura on future products.
“When it comes to the Acura brand, Type S is used to dictate a performance flagship, not Type R,” the engineer told Motor1.com.
We can safely infer, based on that comment, that any performance-oriented version of a future Acura model will stick with Type S in its name. Look no further than the recent Type S concept car, which likely previews a future using that name.
Deciding against the expansion of the Type R name is a matter of purity, Honda tells Motor1. Where other manufacturers like BMW and Mercedes have expanded their performance lineups beyond sports cars to include SUVs and other vehicle types, Honda’s intention is to keep its Type R name focused on racing, even if it means missing out on sales. So until the day comes when we see another Honda product worthy of a racetrack, we can expect the Type R name to stay right where it is on the Civic.
Source: Honda
https://www.motor1.com/news/399596/h...ame-expansion/
For now, the Type R name sticks with the Civic.
The first Honda Civic Type R available to U.S. consumers has been a sales success for the Japanese company. America’s appetite for the the most hardcore Honda continues years after its launch with cars still selling at full price. Despite this, Honda tells Motor1.com it has no plans to expand the Type R name to other models in the brand’s portfolio.This news comes from Hideki Kakinoma, the project leader for the 2020 Civic Type R. During an interview at an event in Milan, Italy, the engineer shared that Honda has no immediate plans for Type R models outside of the Civic.
“The ‘R’ in Civic Type R has always stood for racing, so expanding into something like an SUV or crossover doesn’t make sense,” Kakinoma-san said. “The Civic is currently the only vehicle in the Honda lineup to meet our requirements of what a Type R needs to be.”
It’s fair, then, to ask about Acura and the TLX and NSX, both of which have racing history (the NSX still races today). Even so, Kakinoma says Honda is unlikely to share the Type R nameplate with Acura on future products.
“When it comes to the Acura brand, Type S is used to dictate a performance flagship, not Type R,” the engineer told Motor1.com.
We can safely infer, based on that comment, that any performance-oriented version of a future Acura model will stick with Type S in its name. Look no further than the recent Type S concept car, which likely previews a future using that name.
Deciding against the expansion of the Type R name is a matter of purity, Honda tells Motor1. Where other manufacturers like BMW and Mercedes have expanded their performance lineups beyond sports cars to include SUVs and other vehicle types, Honda’s intention is to keep its Type R name focused on racing, even if it means missing out on sales. So until the day comes when we see another Honda product worthy of a racetrack, we can expect the Type R name to stay right where it is on the Civic.
Source: Honda
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07-30-2020, 11:51 PM
#38
Null and proud of it
Acura has stated the Type-R brand is honda only unfortunately....
https://www.motor1.com/news/399596/h...ame-expansion/
https://www.motor1.com/news/399596/h...ame-expansion/
I pretty much was making a random remark. I guess I was trying to say that maybe Acura is testing the water by offering a Type S, and if it looks promising, then will maybe go up another notch, making a TLX that is on par with the C-TR and Lexus F line and Audi S line in terms of performance.
